“hatred is a very underestimated emotion"

(jim morrison said that)

so i just stumbled across the transcript of a larry king live show that aired 2 weeks ago, on the 17th. the show was titled, "debate over gay marriage." and though i happen to believe that the very title is a negation of any sense of reality in itself — i will PAY the person who can truly explain to me why this should be a political debate; i like trying to be open-minded — i think there are some exchanges worth pointing out here. i know this is painfully long, and i'm not guaranteeing that if you make it through you won't be in more pain still, but i thought i'd throw it out there to e-land anyway for whomever to whatever they will with it...

this frightens me to my core. i don't have to tell you that these are the christians that support bush. sometimes literally support him. and certainly "morally," whatever that means. funny how what is essentially a political talk show is stocked with religious commentators and representatives, eh?

i have elected not to comment as i don't think i'm quite ready. yet. give me a day to digest. and then projectile vomit.

anyway,

guests were as follows:

• janet parshall, radio host of "janet parshall's america" (in case you have any doubts, she's religious right-ist.)



• chad allen, a homosexual actor


• reverend albert mohler, jr., the president southern baptist theological seminary


• guy padgett, the former mayor of casper, wyoming, also homosexual

so, some highlights ala educated guess:

take one: no, i have not seen it, BUT...

king used controversy sparked by brokeback mountain at the golden globe awards to start the discussion.

king: janet parshall, did you see the film? if so, what did you think of it?

parshall: no, i didn't see the film and i'm not at all surprised that out of seven nominations brokeback walked away with four... .

king: why would you comment on it if you haven't seen it?

parhall: well, i'm interested in all of the buzz around the film. i'm not the least bit surprised that we're hearing so much chatter. after all, i think what we're witnessing, larry, is the homosexualizing of america.

we've got the book of daniel with a gay theme and we've got will and grace with a gay theme and we're trying to get people, like me, people of faith who happen to believe that any sex outside of marriage, heterosexual or homosexual marriage, is wrong to try to somehow tolerate and even more importantly accept that lifestyle.

king: don't you think you might learn more by looking at it rather than looking away from it?

parshall: no, i don't think so. in fact, let me tell you something about ang lee. he's a brilliant film director. i'll bet if he found a really good property dealing with, oh let's say polygamy, i bet he could tap into the human heart. i bet he could make people cry. i bet he could pull away the kinds of emotions that people allegedly get after they walk out of this film.

and would it really be about getting us to look at polygamy and accepting it or would it really be about an effective director who knows how to use a particular art form?

...

mohler: i've not seen the movie, larry, and that's a matter of decision, not just a matter of chance. like others, i don't feel any need to see the movie. i have read the screenplay. i know the short story and, of course, I know what the movie is about because it's out there so much in the media. ...

king: didn't the short story move you at all?

mohler: well, no, actually...

king: for example, you're a reverend, didn't you have some compassion for what happened to the younger one of the two?

mohler: well, absolutely. you have to feel compassion when anyone feels pain and when anyone goes through that kind of struggle. but, you know, i really am horrified to think about where that story ended.

you know my main concern, larry, is not with the gospel of heterosexuality, even though i think that's very important. it's with the gospel of jesus christ and what i find lacking in the movie, the screenplay and in the short story is any resolution that really brings these persons to know why they were created and how god really intends them to live and how they would find their greatest satisfaction in living just as god had intended them for his glory.

king: does it disturb you that apparently there's no record of christ having had a heterosexual relationship?

mohler: no, as a matter of fact, christ was single, celibate and yet he had a lot to say about sex. he normalized marriage and said that marriage is absolutely normative and, you know, even with a woman caught in adultery he said "go and sin no more."

and there's no doubt that the christian gospel, the gospels of matthew, mark, luke and john and the entirety of the new testament present a comprehensive celebration of marital sex as one of god's greatest gifts but also as a gift that has to be kept within the boundaries that god has given us and that is heterosexual marriage.

take two: oh no you did NOT.

king brought up matthew shepard, the 1998 victim of an anti-gay hate crime in wyoming.

king: janet, will you say that your cause is hurt when you hear of a matthew shepard?

parshall: well i will say what jonathan dunn, the great poet said, "every man's death diminishes me." i think his death was egregious. i think the homeless man who was beaten to death, his death is egregious. i think the christian who was beheaded in indonesia is an egregious death as well.

but i think it's wrong, larry, to think that somehow one death is more problematic, more egregious than the death of another human being and i think for someone to be killed because of their sexuality, if in fact that was the case, is as wrong as killing someone because of their skin color or because of their religious belief.

king: you don't question that's why he was killed?

parshall: well, there's a lot of questions about his background. was he, in fact — and this is no way, shape or form a justification of what happened because it was wrong, wrong and wrong. let there be no ambiguity there.

but in reality i understand that matthew was somewhat of a person who hung around some of the gay bars and was coming on to some people. so, was he looking for trouble in all the wrong places?

if i were his mom, i would have given him some counsel stay away from that kind of a lifestyle because there's a way that seems right on demand and the end therein is death and unfortunately it cost matthew his life.

take three: doing sex and the christ-itution

king: reverend mohler, if you believe that being gay is a choice, did you choose to be heterosexual?

mohler: well, in some sense yes but when i say it's a choice and i would have to go back before that to say there are desires and even what we might call a sexual or erotic profile that goes back beyond when any of us ever knew we made a choice.

i don't doubt for a minute, larry that there are millions of people who struggle with attractions to the same sex or other kinds of attractions that they don't even know they ever chose. they may never have and as they know themselves would never have chosen them.

but the big issue for all of us is how we find out what our creation was all about and what we were made for and why this incredibly powerful thing called sex is such a big part of our lives and how we are to bring it into a right alignment.

in other words, there are heterosexuals who struggle with all kinds of desires that are just not right desires and when it comes right down to it i, as a christian, believe that we are also deeply affected by sin that we don't even know ourselves well enough to know why we desire the things we desire.

what i hope for is that persons, heterosexual and homosexual, will come to know the grace of the lord jesus christ, would come to know new life in him, would come to understand that sinners can find the only help that is — that is worth finding and the only salvation and solution to our problems by coming to faith in the lord jesus christ and then understanding that god, our creator, has the right to define every aspect of our lives including our sexuality.

king: do you know why if it's such a beautiful thing that it's a sin to do it?

mohler: to do sex?

king: sex, why is it a sin to have sex if it's so beautiful?

mohler: well, i don't think it is a sin to have sex within the confines of marriage.

king: i mean outside of marriage, gay sex, outside of marriage sex. it's a beautiful thing. who does it harm?

mohler: well, you know, that is the problem. i can't say it's a beautiful thing. it may be something the world finds attractive. there may be pleasure in it that is passing but i think the only thing that can genuinely be beautiful is that which is also good and true and that means just as the creator intended it for us.

king: right but that's what you think. you don't want your thoughts to be his thoughts. the creator doesn't say because i say it everyone must do it because you have free choice right?

mohler: well...

king: so you're not making a judgment are you?

mohler: well i am making a judgment...

king: you are?

mohler: ...in saying that what al mohler thinks about this really isn't all that important but what the creator thinks about it is determinative. it's absolutely important.

it's the criterion that will be used even on a day of judgment that i firmly believe is coming when heterosexuals and homosexuals will be judged for all of our sin. and, yes, god will hold us accountable. we have free choice in terms of free agency deciding whether we're going to obey or disobey but we are accountable.

king: but it's not in the constitution. jesus isn't in the constitution of the united states. so, we're going to get into laws now.

take four: democracy's a bitch

king has moved onto gay marriage and is referring specifically to the wyoming town of casper, of which one of his guests was formerly mayor.

king: why would it bother you, janet, if they had gay marriage in casper, wyoming?

parshall: well, let me pick up on something that guy [padgett] said because i appreciated it and that is letting the voice of the people be heard, which is why in 2004 you had eleven states that had a referendum dealing with exactly that subject [gay marriage] and, guess what, in all eleven states the voters said, uh uh, marriage should be defined as one man and one woman.

king: and if they passed it, you'd have gone along with it right?

parshall: passed the idea of what defining marriage as one man and one woman?

king: gay marriage, yes.

parshall: well...

king: if they said one man and one man you'd have gone along because they would have voted it that way so you would approve.

parshall: wouldn't have had much choice. welcome to democracy, exactly.

king: all right, so...

parshall: but i have to tell you, you asked me...

king: ...what do you have against it?

parshall: what i have against it is that it's a pretend family, larry. let's talk about this. you talked about the law but really the genesis of this law, no pun intended, happens to be the book of genesis. it was god himself that defined family as one man and one union, one man, one woman in that union and everything else is a fraudulent misrepresentation.

king: but in genesis guys had five wives.

parshall: yes, they sure did and guess what the bible also said they had a boatload of trouble. in fact, it's interesting usa today writes a piece...

king: but still called them family.

parshall: well, that also said it was called a problem. god's plan all along was one man and one woman and when those patriarchs stepped outside that plan the rest of that book says they had a whole bunch of trouble. so, it isn't about hurting me personally, larry. it's about hurting our culture. it's about hurting our kids.

i think when two people of the same sex get together and they decide to use the moniker of a marriage i think it's a grotesque misrepresentation and actually if that union decides that they want to then adopt children because biology says they can create children then i think what you have in many respects is state sanctioned child abuse because you have purposely taken away either a momma or a daddy and mom and dad are both necessary in a child's life.

king: would you agree that a homosexual union can raise a pretty good child and a heterosexual union can raise a pretty bad one?

parshall: i would agree that probably we need to reform the foster care system and we need to tear down some of the encumbrances to the adoption laws in this country but i don't think it's a good idea to say to johnny, guess what, two daddies are going to meet all your needs just like a mommy and a daddy are because that's just not true.

take five: note to self: take "central molecule of civilization" off the gotta-figure-that-one-out list

king: reverend mohler, do you have any objection to gay unions in which at least when one of the partners may die the other partner may have the full rights of what a marriage would have brought?

mohler: well i think the most important thing is that we understand that marriage is an objective reality and it's been honored that way throughout human history i believe because god did give it to us explicitly even in the act of creation.

when you look at the current debate over gay marriage there are all kinds of things going on there. i fully support a federal marriage amendment because i believe as a people, as a community, we need to honor what marriage is.

i do believe that different arrangements are specific to marriage in terms of such things as parental rights and responsibilities. the covenant of marriage is honored by society and vested with certain rights.

i do understand that in our current cultural moment there can be other arrangements that can be put together, for instance in hospital visitation and other things where individuals can make decisions without regard to perhaps some issues related to marriage.

but when it comes to anything that would devalue marriage and de-normalize marriage, i have to oppose it because i think it leads to a lack of health in the society. i think it — i think it mis-teaches, larry.

marriage not only protects the union of the man and the woman and their children and perpetuates the human race, it's the central molecule of our civilization. it also teaches and the fact is that the adoption of anything like same-sex marriage or even civil unions teaches the wrong thing about what sex and marriage and family is all about.

king: but visiting someone in the hospital [visitation regulations for legally married people sometime differ from standard ones] you couldn't care about that could you?

mohler: no, i raised that myself. i think there are all kinds of issues that are thrown out there that are really false. they have nothing to do particularly just with the institution of marriage but with some social customs and hospital policies that i would be glad to see revisited. but i don't want to see anything happen that would marginalize or weaken marriage as an institution.

king: why then aren't you outwardly opposed to all divorce?

mohler: well, i absolutely am.

king: it destroys a marriage.

mohler: as a matter of fact i...

king: oh, you are?

mohler: i find myself often in hot water for that because i believe the bible is as clear about divorce as about the fact that homosexuality is a sin and i will be the first to say that the very fact that divorce is so accepted in this culture is one of the greatest threats to the family and to our civilization and our society, one of the greatest causes of pain and one of the greatest demonstrations of sin in our time.

so, i'm right there on the front lines to say that our acceptance of a divorce culture is one indication of how far we've come from god's vision of how deeply we have absorbed a deep antagonism in opposition to god's plan.

and, i think it opened the door, larry, for the very conversation we're having about same-sex marriage. if we had held the line at divorce, i don't think we'd be having this current conversation.

king: and so, therefore, unhappy people should stay together?

mohler: unhappy people should find out how to be happy together by fulfilling their covenant promises to each other made before god. i think that's the way to find happiness.

take six: "absolute transcendent eternal truth"

these exchanges followed a caller from chicago to the show who after identifying herself as both the mother of a gay son and a "true christian," posed the following: ... my question is, have they [mohler and parshall] ever had the privilege of having a friendship with a gay person? i hope they will so they will not speak of them as sub-human the way they are tonight. it's breaking my heart.

king: reverend mohler, do you have any gay friends?

mohler: yes, yes i do as a matter of fact. and i don't think it's fair to categorize anything that's been said here today as speaking of homosexuals as sub-human. as a matter of fact, i think we have learned...

king: but you speak of them as sinners.

mohler: ... well, I want to speak of myself as a sinner, larry. it's just a matter of which kind of sin and which pattern of temptation.

king: you don't seem as angry as yourself. just a comment.

...

king: janet, how would you respond to the mother?

parshall, well first of all, let me tell you one mother to another mother, chicago, i appreciate your exemplary, unconditional love for your son. i think that's our calling as moms.

but I have to tell you, that i think al makes a very important point. and that is, if we have a child that's engaged in a wrongful behavior, not wrong because we decided to say it was wrong, but wrong because absolute transcendent eternal truth said don't engage in that behavior, because you're going to get hurt.

then i think the loving thing to do as a parent is to say, "i love you, honey, i will love you until the day i die, but i want to encourage you to make another choice because the one you're making now, in the end, is going to be very hurtful and harmful."

take seven: i sin better than you sin

another caller, from nyc, made two comments: "one is that we live here in america, and we're talking about the separation of church and state for one thing. civil unions should be for everybody, gay, straight, lesbian, heterosexual, everybody. as far as the government is concerned, we should all have civil unions. and if the churches and the synagogues want to have marriage, they can call it marriage. who cares. but as far as the civil rights issue, everybody should have civil unions.

king: janet, what's wrong with that idea? civil unions for everybody. you want to get married, go to the church of your denomination?

parshall: well...

the caller continued: "...i had a phony marriage. i was married to a gay man for 27 years when i found out. he was never interested in me. he was playing around with other men. he could have introduced illness into the family. he is much happier being with men. i am much happier not having him be with me. we're both free. and it's really nobody's business what goes on between consenting adults behind closes doors. ...

king: let me ask you this way. janet, why is it your business?

parshall: well, i think we are all part of this government, and we all have a voice, and i think it's important that we understand in the marketplace of ideas, all ideas should be listened to. good ideas will last and stand; bad ideas will fall under their own weight. you know, it's interesting, larry, in this debate — and i think it was chad [allen] or else it was guy [padgett] who said earlier, we're going to debate this for a long time. we are. we're going to debate this until the cows come home. and there will in the final analysis be two mutually exclusive perspectives on this. one will say, hey, anything goes, don't box me in by rules, i want to do my own thing, i want to define it any way i want to. just give me the liberty to live as i want.

and then the other world view that says, well, you know what, i do have free will and i do have choice. but i bow in submission to a loving god — not a cosmic bully who wants to beat me to death with his rules, but a loving god who says, here's a parameter. i've made man and i've made woman and i've made the institution of marriage. and when you step outside that institution and you engage in sexual activity, you're going to get hurt. and because our god loves us unconditional, he hates it when we get hurt. and so that's what we do, we speak out and we speak the truth. and it isn't a matter of saying, well, we're the haters and we're pointing fingers.

king: but janet, if you choose to do it and you don't get hurt — some people get married and do get hurt — something is wrong with the equation?

parshall: you know what? i have to tell you, larry, that we are all sinners. the statement that was made earlier that somehow al and i are pointing fingers at other people — you know, al and i got all dressed up tonight and sat here to be with you, and we came here as sinners, but we are sinners that understand that we are loved by an unconditional god.

king: so you're sinners with more understanding than these sinners.

parshall: my...

king: you have more understanding than your fellow sinners?

parshall: no...

king: this is a panel of sinners, but two of them have more understanding than the other two?

unidentified male: we're all sinners, but they get to get married.

KING: Well, you have more understanding than they do.

parshall: let me tell you what the difference is. let's take another choice in behavior. let's call it adultery. how come here in washington, dc, i have seen gay rights parades, but how come i haven't seen the national association of adulterers who come to washington and demand all kinds of legal protections...

king: i don't think they have a group.

parshall: and if they did, you and i would be having the same discussion, because it would be another choice of sexual behavior outside the parameters of marriage. and guess what, government does have a say here. government says that a 55-year-old teacher can't have sex or marry a 14-year-old student.

king: but government also threw out all other adultery laws.

parshall: all other adultery laws?

king: that's right. adultery among consenting adults, there's no such thing anymore.

parshall: that's exactly right. and oh, we're so much better now. That's why one out of two marriages end in divorce.

king: but the people decided it, janet. hey, what can we do? the public decided it.

PARSHALL: Or some activist judges.

king: activist — i've never met an inactive judge. most of them get up and go to work. anyway, that's — inactive judge would be at home sleeping.

take seven: poor, confused child

this caller is the daughter of a gay man from south carolina and directed her comment to parshall: "how she said that it's child abuse for gay parents to have kids. well, my dad is actually gay, and i completely disagree with what she said. ... and it's just, you can't really comment on that if you don't know the situation. ...

king: i think she's saying, janet, why not walk a mile in her shoes?

parshall: well, larry, i'll tell you what, i walked a mile in my shoes, and i know what it's like when my children have a mother and a father. listen to what south carolina didn't say. she didn't say she had two daddies; she said she had a homosexual father. there's a lot more i would like to ask her as a follow-up question. for example, did her dad leave the relationship? does she live with her mom? does she visit her dad? so in other words, is she getting the benefit of both the mother and the father?

king: but the main thing is, she's happy.

parshall: well, we hope she's happy, but i bet something...

king: well, she says she's happy. are you questioning her?



if you're still with me (hats off), i offer only this:
there is one thing for which i give these kinds of insane religious zealots credit; what they say is so absurd that they save me a lot of effort in trying to make them look extremist and ridiculous and horrific and hair-raising — no, they do it themselves.